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Islamic Education and P4C
An Interview with
Robert Fisher
June 2009
With Many Thank to: S. Fatemeh Musavi
Saeed Naji: As far as we can see in some of your storybooks translated into Persian and esp. in your book titled which dedicates a chapter to P4C stories, it seems that your view on P4C varies a bit comparing to that of Lipman and Philip Cam's. e.g. It is evident when you gave an abstract of "Metamorphoses" by Kafka in your book Thinking Stories. The act which may be criticized by the point of views` of Cam and Lipman. Kindly elaborate on your views of the principle features of stories for P4C courses. In other words how one may achieve Philosophical Adequacy?
Robert Fisher: Using stories through P4C helps develop Philosophical Intelligence (PI) and philosophical dialogue with children is important in developing habits of intelligence. ‘Philosophical adequacy’ comes through the developing philosophical intelligence through the practice of P4C (as discussed in Fisher 2008, summarised below)
• Philosophical Intelligence is a human capacity to wonder, question and enquire
Gardner suggests what he calls ‘existential intelligence’ (EI) is a universal human ‘proclivity to pose and ponder questions about life, death, and ultimate realities’. This traditionally has been the within the field of enquiry known as philosophy. Whether we call them ‘intelligences’, ‘intellectual capacities’, ‘mental abilities’ or ‘thinking skills’ what are referred to are common capacities of human minds to respond to the puzzles and problems of human existence with enquiring minds. PI is more than EI, it begins in wonder but is more than mere questioning – it is the quest of the human mind for conceptual understanding.
• Philosophical Intelligence is the mind’s quest for conceptual understanding
PI arises from the human mind’s capacity to free itself from its dependence on sensory experience and to develop knowledge and understanding using concepts as tools for thinking. It seeks solutions to problems, truths or knowledge by exploring, building on and creating new concepts. It is not a single capacity but made up of many elements including interpreting, questioning, reasoning, creative thinking and judgment.
• Through the exercise of PI children can develop habits of intelligent behavior
Children can exercise PI and engage in and explain the value of philosophical discussion. ‘Philosophy is the way you sort out problems in life when nobody knows the answer’ says Simon, Y6. Philosophy is ‘a story with a puzzle’ says Kate Y2. Over 30 years of research across world in Philosophy for Children (P4C) provides a strong empirical basis, showing that P4C enhances eg verbal reasoning, achievement, dialogic skills, self-esteem and social behavior.
Reference: Fisher R. (2008) ‘Philosophical Intelligence’ in Hand M & Winstanley C ‘Philosophy in Schools’ (Continuum)
Naji: We learned from your previous letter that you are doing a research on dialogue in Islamic tradition. Please elaborate on the way you were introduced to Islamic tradition and your ideas on the relation between Islamic education and P4C approaches (e.g. community of inquiry etc).
Fisher: There is a long Islamic tradition which focuses on developing the mind through the use of reason as the following quotes testify:
Q. 2:164 Verily, in the creation of the heavens and of the earth, and in the succession of night and day: and in the ships that speed through the sea with what is useful to man: and in the waters which God sends down from the sky, giving life thereby to the earth after it had been lifeless, and causing all manner of living creatures to multiply thereon: and in the change of the winds, and the clouds that run their appointed courses between sky and earth: [in all this] there are messages indeed for people who use their reason.*
(impf. act. yaªqilu)
*Muhammad Asad’s note: This passage is one of many in which the Qur’än appeals to “those who use their reason” to observe the daily wonders of nature, including the evidence of man’s own ingenuity (“the ships that speed through the sea”), as so many indications of a conscious, creative Power pervading the universe.
Q. 12:109 ….Have, then , they [who reject this divine writ] journeyed about the earth and beheld what happened in the end to those [deniers of the truth] who lived before them? – and [do they not know that] to those who are conscious of God the life in the hereafter is indeed better [than this world]? Will they not, then, use their reason? (impf. act. yaªqilu)
Q. 45:5 And in the succession of night and day, and in the means of subsistence which God sends down from the skies, giving life thereby to the earth after it had been lifeless, and in the change of the winds: [in all this] there are messages for people who use their reason.
‘A man is as his intellect.’
‘The intellect is the messenger of Truth.’
‘The mind makes good every affair; the fruit of the mind is correct behaviour.’
‘The mind is the vessel of knowledge.’
(The above four aåadïth are from al-Åäkim, I.42, cited in Prophetic Traditions in Islam: On the Authority of the Family of the Prophet, compiled by Shaykh Fadhlalla Haeri).
There is also a long tradition of creative dialogue within Islamic tradition, for example in my latest book ‘Creative Dialogue’ I quote many of the traditional stories of Mulla Nasruddin to illustrate the point that dialogue is central to tradition as well as to a democratic society.
Naji: Since many of your works are translated into Persian, Iranian students are quite familiar with your works. Is there any new achievement and idea you would like to present briefly to their interest?
Fisher: My new book Creative Dialogue is a book is written for anyone interested in teaching children how to think, to learn and to engage in creative dialogue. The message of the book is that the key to improving children’s education is to improve the quality of dialogue between children and their teachers or carers. It argues that creative dialogue should feature in every lesson in school and be part of the daily experience of children at home. It is a message that reflects worldwide educational research into dialogic teaching and learning. The book identifies the principles of dialogic learning with children, and offers practical guidance to helping children of all ages and abilities learn through dialogue at home and in the classroom.
The personalising of learning, which means putting the student or learner at the heart of the educative process, has always been the essence of effective teaching and of lifelong learning. At the heart of personalised education is self-expression through talk. As Peter, aged 8, put it: ’A good teacher is interested in what you are thinking.’ Talk is the most effective means of finding out what children are thinking, feeling, or learning. However research shows that the quality of classroom talk has the power to enable or inhibit cognition and learning.
We find out what makes us individual by being in communion with ourselves and with others. As Maria, aged 9 put it; ‘It is not enough to just go round and round in your own thoughts, you need to get others to tell you what they think or how else are you going to get more thoughts?’ Personalising learning through dialogue is about making all students special. It recognises that as humans they are both ‘at potential’ as well as ‘at risk’, and need practice in communicating what they think as well as in responding to the thinking of others. In short they learn best to become themselves through dialogue with others.
The following sums up some of the differences that might distinguish creative dialogue from traditional teacher-pupil interaction:
Creative dialogue Traditional teacher/pupil interaction
Children’s questions Teacher’s questions
Shared agenda Teacher’s agenda
Imaginative Informative
Exploratory Limited focus
Variation of viewpoint One directing view
Reflective Calculative
‘I/thou’ relationship ‘I/it’ relationship
Persuasive Authoritative
Possible answers Right answers
Co-operative enquiry Competitive answer-giving
Personalised learning Content-focused learning
Related to inner purposes Related to functional outcomes
Traditional teacher/pupil interaction is a necessary feature of learning, but it is not sufficient nor is it the best means for maximising learning potential of children. Traditional teacher talk tends to place limits on learning, whereas research suggests that creative dialogue expands the possibilities of children’s learning.
We need to help children practice being creative through dialogue, to think for themselves, develop the capacity to talk intelligently with others and use dialogue to aid learning. Given the challenges children face today and the problems they will have to face in the future there can be no more important task for teachers than to improve children’s capacity to both think for themselves and to benefit from the thinking of others by means of dialogue. As one teacher said about her work in engaging children in dialogue for learning: ‘Its very hard, but its by far the most satisfying part of teaching.’
Reference: An extract from Fisher R. (in press) Creative Dialogue, Routledge
Naji: Please explain your views on providing illustrations for stories.
Fisher: Some P4C practitioners like to use picture books, especially with young children who find conceptual thinking difficult. I often use ‘pictures for thinking’ with older students for conceptual enquiry and plan to write a book on this. However ‘illustrations’ often limit children to the ‘literal level’ of interpretation ie Who is this? What is happening? ‘What does this show?’ A good story, such as religious or folk stories that have stood the test of time, do not need pictorial illustration. Indeed if a story is told in pictures the mind does not need to work hard to make sense of the words. In my ‘Stories’ approach I include literal questions about the story (which for example might be read from a picture) but the more important questions are conceptual, about meanings and not merely appearances.
Naji: What is the role of "creative thinking" in your these stories?
Fisher: Leaving children to think and learn on their own does not guarantee they will engage in creative thinking. What they need to stimulate, challenge and stretch their thinking is dialogue. What any mind needs to retain its flexibility, in both young and old people, is the combination of creative thinking and dialogue.
Evidence that creative thinking is happening in a dialogue might include examples of individuals or groups engaging in one or more of the following elements explored in this chapter:
1 Questioning and challenging
2 Making connections and seeing relationships
3 Imagining what might be
4 Exploring and extending ideas,
5 Reflecting critically on ideas, actions and outcomes
These are some of the creative behaviours, or habits of intelligent behaviour, that need to be practiced through dialogue with children at home or in the classroom. My book ‘Creative Dialogue explores these features and suggests what needs to be done to develop them.
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