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Interview with
Per Jespersen
By Saeed Naji
Per Jespersen is one of P4c leaders in Denmark. He is an influential teacher in promoting P4C through the word specially in Denmark. He has written a lot of stories and manuals for children and teachers, which were translated into several languages.
1. I learned from your paper, PROBLEMS WITH PHILOSOPHY FOR CHILDREN, after Christen Kold’s new private schools, Danish method of teaching has changed so much, that Danish schools are surprisingly different from the English, Australian, and American schools. Can you tell us about this difference? What is the difference between Danish schools and other countries schools?
In Danish schools there is much more freedom for teachers and students. The law tells us to build up education on the mind of the single child, i.e. that every student has to take part in the planning of its own education. This means, that teachers can choose their ways of teaching in class without asking anybody. There is not even a curriculum, only a goal. This means, that if a teacher chooses to use philosophy as a tool for his/her teaching, he/she can do it. So when I try to introduce p4c to the schools, I have to contact the class teachers and not the head-master or the ministry of education.
So my goal is to make teachers see the values of a Socratic dialogue and see the values of philosophy as such. This is done through lectures on different schools and web-sites, on which they can find texts with manuals. Some teachers do need a little training, as the role of a p4c-teacher is different from the role of a teacher in all other subjects. In p4c the teacher is not the man/woman, who knows everything – on the contrary: he/she is the mediator of the dialogue going on in the classroom. This means that you build your questions on the children’s statements, because the supreme goal is to help each single student to find his/her own opinion. Each child is of a special value and different from all other human beings; therefore, the education has to be individual. The best way to find oneself through philosophy and a Socratic dialogue is to do it together with others in the classroom. You can only find yourself when you mirror yourself in other people.
To see what all this is about, you could read “The Coky Man”, which you are welcome to translate into your language. In this text, which has been published in many countries, you can see how to talk philosophy with a child without interfering in his own subjective thinking.
2. In your opinion, a story written in one country with certain culture may not be useful for other countries’ children with other culture. Can we change the story in a way that it becomes useful for other countries’ children when we are translating them?
Something in a child’s mind is universal, something comes from the culture, the child grows up in. Therefore, the texts could be changed, so they fit into another culture. But there is always something universal in philosophical texts, and this has to be underlined. Every culture has its roots in philosophy, as I see philosophy as the deepest of mankind. So everybody is welcome to change my texts, so that they are on the same level as a certain culture is. We are all human beings, and culture is “only” a way of living on a specific place of the globe.
Universality is very important, and it is crucial to understand, and that the children understand, that philosophy and a Socratic dialogue do not put any culture aside – on the contrary: it gives a perspective to the way of life you live, wherever on the globe it is. As I see it, this perspective is missing in many cultures – the internet could be the reason, superficiality could also be the reason. Children have subconsciously a desperate need for a universal perspective to their lives, and p4c can provide them with that.
In a way you could put it as follows: Deep inside in every human being there is the existentialistic perspective, covered by religion, science, culture, and politics. So the way to do philosophy with children is to discuss concepts of cultural value and from there work your way through the levels of science, religion and finally existentialism. This gives the child philosophical perspectives to all the above mentioned levels of life. We are all alike and different simultaneously, but seen through philosophy we have something in common: to find ourselves, our own I (soul), and the responsibility which is a consequence of that.
3. Someone believes that every story includes some international elements and some national ones. Therefore when we are translating the stories we can eliminate national element (or replace them with other elements) in order to be understood by other countries children. What is your opinion about it?
Of course every text for p4c has some national elements. But it should be very easy to change them into one’s own culture or country. Let us say, that a Mark and Deena story takes place in Copenhagen and some streets are mentioned. Change them and use the names of squares, streets, and parks in Teheran. The clue of the story should then be the same.
But even philosophical concepts can have some national elements. What is relevant in my country might be of no interest in New Zealand, China or Iran. But it is still possible to change a few sentences, so that the story contains important philosophical issues. I do accept that, and I can tell you that some of my stories have been translated into Korean, and they have of course been changed a little bit, so that they fit into a Korean culture. Right now I am writing stories going on in Quito, Ecuador, but as I have been there, I can easily make them South American.
The important thing is, that the philosophical issues are still the same, as philosophy lies under any national and even political topic. It is crucial that children see that; it will make it easier for them to cope with events going on in their culture.
4. What are the differences between the Lipman / Sharp’s stories and your stories (Danish stories) on philosophical inquiry for children?
First of all Lipman stories are so typical American that they are of no interest for Danish children. A few of his texts have been translated into Danish, but they do not work, and children are so bored with them. When Lipman was introduced in Denmark, his book “Philosophy In The Classroom” was very much read, and his intentions were wonderful, but as soon as Danish teachers saw his texts for children, and especially his manuals, they gave up. It seems, as if Lipman wants to show children his way, and his way only, and that he tries to make logics the only basis of philosophy, even ethics. This we see as a mistake. We see philosophy parted in the four classical areas: aesthetics, ethics, logic and metaphysics. And we see metaphysics as the most profound basis of all philosophy. That is the reason why many of my texts end up, after some time, in metaphysics. We do see the American texts as too superficial – that do not consider the philosophical depths a child has.
Besides that you had to take a course in Denmark in his texts and get an “A” to get allowance to use his material. This is not a Danish way of doing things. Ann Sharp’s stories have never been translated into Danish. She has a more fresh view, but there are so many Danish texts, and Norwegian and Swedish as well, that we have enough. I have worked out a series of stories from the second grade to high school with the same children as main persons. This makes it easier for the students to cope with, they know these children, love them, and discuss their statements eagerly. Some of them have been translated into German, Spanish, Portuguese and English, and I have used them in the South American area, and they seem to work wonderfully: they are in a way universal. The manuals of the stories are not too long, and the manual is only to be understood as suggestions to the teacher, how she/he can do it. I do think this is the way all over the globe.
5. How much has p4c/pwc been successful in Denmark?
It has been very successful, as many schools use the Danish stuff. It can be found on 3 web-sites, and the copying is free. The books, which were printed some 20 years ago, are still on many schools, but it is important to say, that p4c is not scheduled – it suddenly pops up in class, and it is the teachers’ task to grasp it when it is there: he changes his role from being a knowing person into a mediator and catalyst. Thus, p4c is more art than teaching, and p4c should be integrated in any subject. The success grew out of a Danish film “DU OG JEG” (YOU AND I), which has been shown on Danish television several times, and which is still in use on many schools. This film was the first one being made on p4c, and it inspired thousands of teachers – and still do.
6. Do Danish education administrators agree with accomplishing P4c/PwC program in Danish classrooms?
It is not a question of administrators here, as teachers are free to choose their own way of teaching. But I happen to know that the minister of education agrees on the concept, but it is really not a question of his approval, but of the teachers’ agreement. I am often called to Danish schools to start up a week with p4c, and all teachers report back, that it was a success. I recently worked out manuals on p4c for 20 of Hans Christian Andersen’s fairy tales, and many teachers tell me, that they have spent marvelous lessons with their class doing these tales the p4c way. They are the only manuals on this poet’s tales and were made exactly this year because of his 200 year’s birthday. They can be found on the net, as well – and they will be published in Ecuador September 2005.
7. We have translated some of your manuals for Hans Christian Anderson’s tales. But apparently, it is not been shown how a teacher can use them. What commands is for students and what Commands for teachers? Can you tell me (and interested Iranian teachers) how one can use the manuals and stories in classrooms?
The manual is a guideline for the teacher -- a way which he can choose, opening the dialogue in class. Therefore, he has not to follow the manual word by word. It's only there to help the teacher to help the children to stay on the track. If you open a dialogue, asking "What is the difference between fantasy and reality, you don't know what the children will answer, so you listen to their words and build your next question on their statements. Even if they are ways out of H. C. Andersen. Take a look at a section of a film I have made on:
www.visionaivity.com/youandi1.wmvAnd you can follow how the dialogue runs.
8. It seems there is an invisible resistance to acceptance of the new paradigm of education (reflective paradigm as Lipman says) in education ministry (/education administrators) of all countries. In other word, to agree with accomplishing P4C/Pwc in all of schools is not easy for education administrators of the countries. Did you face with the problem in Denmark?
No not really – for the reasons I told you. But even in Denmark, political administration is growing more and more fundamentalistic. This makes it even more necessary to show these administrators, that they can destroy lives of our children, if they tend to prevent our goals. There is an ongoing dialogue between the political administration and p4c people. We do have a firm belief, that they will understand, as so many investigations show the necessity of p4c. The Swedish government has seen the light and has approved that p4c is an important part of growing up.
9. Can one claim that there is a Danish version of P4C/PwC? If yes, what are the characters of the version? How much does it own Lipman’s works?
There is a Scandinavian version of p4c, which has its inspiration from Matthew Lipman, especially the book “Philosophy In The Classroom”. This book inspired, especially some people in Sweden and Norway, but in Denmark p4c started independent from Lipman’s works, as we did not know about it. It all started at a small school in the Southern part of Denmark, where I still live. I was a class teacher for a class for 7 years, and by coincidence I wrote some texts for the class, which seemed to work well. We discussed the philosophical issues, and also discussed how to make new texts on p4c. The very first text was The Wonder Dough, which is still in use. Later followed more texts for the same class, and we decided to publish them ourselves, as no official publisher wanted to go into the project. In the following years a lot of books were published, a.o. a series of books with the two children Kim and Marianne (Mark and Deena in English). A lot was sold during the next 5 years, and they are still in use on many schools. At that time I did not know that there was anything in the world called p4c. When I heard I could see, that this was what I was doing, so it went on and grew into a project world-wide. I still lecture all over the world on p4c in the Danish version.
The typical Danish version is that the manual does not want to take the students to a certain conclusion. Each student has to find his/her own way, and the goal is to strengthen students’ self confidence, as I see this as the biggest problem we have. The teacher never expresses his own opinion, and the students do not ask for it – never. They do like, that their teacher is a spiritually searching person as they are themselves. They like to see a teacher as a normal human being with all its curiosity, growing into self-development and knowledge about oneself. This is the clue – and it works. I have seen it working in so many countries, and as I later met Gareth Matthews, saw him work with children in Norway and had wonderful talks with him, I was sure, that this was the way.
10. What is your distinctive method Or Idea in this area?
I guess you now see the IDEA and the method. Let me give you an example. Let us say, that a text deals with the concept “soul”. This is a metaphysical issue, and you will see a manual like this:
What is soul in your opinion? Make all students make their statements.
Discuss in class what you have heard.
Try to find a definition for the concept “soul”
And the texts for the teacher could be as follows:
The intention is not that you tell the students about your opinion on soul, but that you help them to find their own opinion. You can be sure, that all students have been doing a lot of thinking on this subject, but in modern society they often have nowhere to discuss it. You can open a discussion in class, and the students will love it!
I can tell you that I had a group of children, with whom I was supposed to read Hans Christian Andersen’s LITTLE IDA’S FLOWERS during 15 lessons. They went so deep into the philosophical discussion that we only read the first ten lines of the tale!!!!!!!! All this is because I never give the children my view, but built my new questions on the statements of the children. This was a wonderful experience, and their parents even thanked me for those lessons.
11. Are the cultural elements effective in the foundation of the approach and its development? If yes, could you discuss it please?
Of course there are, but together with the students I try to come behind the cultural concepts to make them discover, what kind of philosophy there is behind culture. It could be historical issues, habits, religion – but if the lessons succeed, you will land on philosophical concepts, and when they are felt and understood by the students, they get better readers and a greater knowledge about society and their role in it.
Remember: philosophy grew into religion, science, culture, and politics. This is the crucial concept behind the Danish way of working with children—and you can be sure: they love it.
12. Can you tell us about the achievements of P4C/PwC in Denmark? To what extent is it accomplished?
We do not have the habit of making tests or scientific investigations on this kind of education. So I can only tell you, what teachers tell me: We see our children grow spiritually, they learn to care for each other, respect each other, and love all the questions of Life that can never be answered definitely.
And I can only say: THAT is the intention!!!!!!!!!!
(if you want websites to watch:
www.childrenphilosophy.comwww.perjespersen.bravehost.com
If you want to translate some of my texts to your language, please let me know. I would be so happy.
13. What is your view about the using your stories and manuals in other countries as the united state, regarding your view about IAPC materials?
I find it marvelous that my stories are used all over the world, including the US, where the IAPC materials more and more are considered not useful.
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